In the hopes of toning down house rules, streamlining the game, and generally making things better, I will be switching to the current edition of WoD for the Summer game and all future games in the setting that I run.
Not sure yet on the exact transition method. Likely i will give characters a lump sum of xp to spend based upon #of summers attending, + a bit more for good rp, and let people remake using the base system.
the only thing that is problematic is the clan thing... I initially wanted to keep the same story, but just use the rules. but that is problematic, as that makes almost as many problems as the old system for those not well versed in roleplaying ("but you said make a character, so i did. it's a mekhet..." "no, i meant one of the old clans, like brujah..." "but brujah's just a bloodline...") within WoD.
So, i am trying to figure out ways to merge things, keep the old, and transition into the new, for both story and rules. suggestions are always welcome. also preferences are great too. the let me know where i should be focussing my attention and effort.
Knights: OOC-System Transition
Last edited by rydi on Fri Aug 14, 2009 10:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Threading the Gerbil since 1982
The idea no one will like
One idea that I doubt anyone will like is just scrapping it all and starting anew with the current system... yes give bonus exp for previous summers and RP but otherwise work within the current system as it is... just playing devil's advocate with this one
That which is not dead can eternal lie and with strange eons even death may die
My Color is Blue
I value Knowledge, logic, and deceit. I love to pursue wisdom but also to manipulate and deceive. At my best, I am brilliant and progressive. At my worst, I am treacherous and cold. My symbol is a water droplet. My enemies are green and red.
My Color is Blue
I value Knowledge, logic, and deceit. I love to pursue wisdom but also to manipulate and deceive. At my best, I am brilliant and progressive. At my worst, I am treacherous and cold. My symbol is a water droplet. My enemies are green and red.
there are ways of doing that and still blending the old story in as a mystery element... kind of like a critical shift in fengshui or a time shift in a... um... time travel type story.
but i don't know if people want to do that. i'd want feedback on what others want to do.
YOU HEAR THAT PEOPLE?! I WANT FEEDBACK!!!
but i don't know if people want to do that. i'd want feedback on what others want to do.
YOU HEAR THAT PEOPLE?! I WANT FEEDBACK!!!
Threading the Gerbil since 1982
1. I think Thael's suggests might just be the best option. Translating characters is just not that easy imo, especially for older characters. From what i have talked about with you and Jason, something just seems to get lost in the translation. Some characters just change too drastically and are an oddity in old WoD and in new WoD they are just freaking impossible to deal with.
People could keep their same character concepts, but maybe swicth them to a new clan that would work for the concept. First year players who still have their old character would be given more xp than others. Plus maybe some extra for those who did something great for the city. Like Haley, Jen and I for solving the undercity from the first summer or Gilmore who did some stuff with that claw of his.
Though along with this option comes a revamping of the plot in the city and lots more work that i don't know if we have the time for.
2. Another option would be to try and convert people and just figure out which new clans people would likely fall into.
People could keep their same character concepts, but maybe swicth them to a new clan that would work for the concept. First year players who still have their old character would be given more xp than others. Plus maybe some extra for those who did something great for the city. Like Haley, Jen and I for solving the undercity from the first summer or Gilmore who did some stuff with that claw of his.
Though along with this option comes a revamping of the plot in the city and lots more work that i don't know if we have the time for.
2. Another option would be to try and convert people and just figure out which new clans people would likely fall into.
A part of me wants to say "scrap it and start over". That part of me is that part that says "There is nothing you can ever do to catch up to people who have been playing since the first summer." It's the power gamer part - in many ways it can be ignored, but I do think it is a valid concern. Some stratification is desirable, some is not. It's really up to the GM in this case as to whether he wants that or not.
If we continued to play with the old characters in the old system though, there would be literally no way for those of us that started in the third summer or later to really even play in the same league as first and second summer characters. At least, that is what I observed during my admittedly brief time in the game.
If we continued to play with the old characters in the old system though, there would be literally no way for those of us that started in the third summer or later to really even play in the same league as first and second summer characters. At least, that is what I observed during my admittedly brief time in the game.
not true. after the second summer you play, a character is fleshed out enough to do some real damage to the older characters. just depends on what you want to do and how you want to do it really. but, that said, the stratification is alot less drastic in NWoD.
but yeah... i think starting over in the new system might not be terrible.
it would let people remake, give a better framework for running a game (the covenant/clan/bloodline divide really is nice for politics) and as i mentioned to zack, it doesn't mean scrapping the old stuff.
i would keep the same basic ideas and generalities. and then at a later date (or earlier) i would be able to run a story detailing how the change occured (basically, if i did a reset, gehena would occur, and then be wiped from reality and the remains would be reformed into NWoD via the godlike powers of 10th dot abilities, abilities that aren't even a part of NWoD i might add).
but yeah... i think starting over in the new system might not be terrible.
it would let people remake, give a better framework for running a game (the covenant/clan/bloodline divide really is nice for politics) and as i mentioned to zack, it doesn't mean scrapping the old stuff.
i would keep the same basic ideas and generalities. and then at a later date (or earlier) i would be able to run a story detailing how the change occured (basically, if i did a reset, gehena would occur, and then be wiped from reality and the remains would be reformed into NWoD via the godlike powers of 10th dot abilities, abilities that aren't even a part of NWoD i might add).
Threading the Gerbil since 1982
WTF??
wait so the one idea I figure nobody will like actually got a positive response... Wow...
I know most of the people are not on here and their votes have not been heard but I figured a wipe option would be thrown out on its ass... hmmm
I know most of the people are not on here and their votes have not been heard but I figured a wipe option would be thrown out on its ass... hmmm
That which is not dead can eternal lie and with strange eons even death may die
My Color is Blue
I value Knowledge, logic, and deceit. I love to pursue wisdom but also to manipulate and deceive. At my best, I am brilliant and progressive. At my worst, I am treacherous and cold. My symbol is a water droplet. My enemies are green and red.
My Color is Blue
I value Knowledge, logic, and deceit. I love to pursue wisdom but also to manipulate and deceive. At my best, I am brilliant and progressive. At my worst, I am treacherous and cold. My symbol is a water droplet. My enemies are green and red.
Change over & Elders.
I have a certain level of ambivalence about translating over the old characters within the new framework, myself. But if it can be done within a major plot point (Gehenna etc) I am willing to run with that. My only concern is how it will affect "The City" and role-playing, in actual application, BEFORE The hows and whys are dealt with, within the game.
As to the Mega Characters started in summers of old, I can only speak for myself, but for sometime now I have started to feel like I am running a plot devise rather than a character. Which is, perhaps as it should be. After all, though most people know and occasionally interact with their building manager, or the dean of their department at school, how often do you hang out with them?
So the gist of what I am saying is that there are 2 major concerns with the Elder characters.
1) They have positions, which command respect, and require a certain distance. Though not every character deals with that the same way, the truth of the matter is you usually can't be someone’s buddy & expect them to follow orders. So going out and paling around with the neonates is not really an option.
Also, by now we have established our social networks within the city. Think of it like any long running TV series; Characters may come and go & over time pivotal shifts <i>will</i> occur, but you <b>always</b> know who the main characters are.
(Our Scoobies have been determined. Move on. Apologies for the BtVS reference, but it works.)
2) There are technical problems in the way we are running them and the situations they are in. Ex. Sequestered Primogen meetings. Ramifications of old plot to be dealt with. Etc. The result of which is the further (literal) isolating of the older players from the newer.
(As far as improving the general role-play of the game, I do have some suggestions as to how those characters might be dealt with, but that is for another topic thread.)
The point of that being, for some time I have been considering making a new character more capable of engaging the other neonates; I highly suggest that the others in my position consider the same. It would make for a much more integrated gaming environment.
Regards,
'Sephone.
As to the Mega Characters started in summers of old, I can only speak for myself, but for sometime now I have started to feel like I am running a plot devise rather than a character. Which is, perhaps as it should be. After all, though most people know and occasionally interact with their building manager, or the dean of their department at school, how often do you hang out with them?
So the gist of what I am saying is that there are 2 major concerns with the Elder characters.
1) They have positions, which command respect, and require a certain distance. Though not every character deals with that the same way, the truth of the matter is you usually can't be someone’s buddy & expect them to follow orders. So going out and paling around with the neonates is not really an option.
Also, by now we have established our social networks within the city. Think of it like any long running TV series; Characters may come and go & over time pivotal shifts <i>will</i> occur, but you <b>always</b> know who the main characters are.
(Our Scoobies have been determined. Move on. Apologies for the BtVS reference, but it works.)
2) There are technical problems in the way we are running them and the situations they are in. Ex. Sequestered Primogen meetings. Ramifications of old plot to be dealt with. Etc. The result of which is the further (literal) isolating of the older players from the newer.
(As far as improving the general role-play of the game, I do have some suggestions as to how those characters might be dealt with, but that is for another topic thread.)
The point of that being, for some time I have been considering making a new character more capable of engaging the other neonates; I highly suggest that the others in my position consider the same. It would make for a much more integrated gaming environment.
Regards,
'Sephone.
There are several good points to address from Sephone's post, I'll see what I can do here (at work).
Parts of the social distance between older and newer characters will be alliviated via the introduction of covenents which, in an almost fraternal fashion, bring players together under an umbrella which is neither the city's or their clans. Covenents can give them common interests and goals that cross many of the other mechanical boundries inherent in the game - whether those goals be political, academic, or supernatural (or, yes, even physical).
I am, for the record, a strong proponent of the introduction of covenents rather than the old Sects of the Camarilla and Sabbat, as I think they are also a more realistic take on the social structures that undead monsters would create for themselves.
The primogen meetings are a major point for me. As someone that was not in them, I feel I can pretty accurately reflect the opinions of those of us absent from those meetings when I say "It was fucking boring." The only realistic alternative I see is that any such meetings which will remove the majority of GMs and/or current movers and shakers from the playing field should be help exclusively online. I can easily configure a forum in such a way that such meetings can be kept private (except from me, of course >:D) from the rest of the players if the Primogen, or whatever are in place once the reorgnizations are over, want to "meet" in private.
In a lot of ways I think that the migration from one system to another opens up a lot of neat possibilities, not the least of which is a chance to give everyone a fresh start. Another primary point of potential is the plot possibilities and complications that come into play. The new version of WoD, at least for the bloodsucking type, has more layers of social interaction in it than previously existed. Some part of your blood makes you fundamentally loyal to your clan, but at the same time, your mental loyalty and most of your strongest social bonds exist within your covenent. At the same time, the Prince is vying for your loyalty, largely independant of the covenent structure. The new social structure is also, in some ways, less rigid than the oWod system was. If, for example, the Carthian Movement gains power in the city, there won't be a Prince. There would instead be a fairly elected President of the City, who would, in a way, answer to its residents - esspecially if he wanted to keep the job. Alternately, if the Invictus gain power (which is sort of their thing), the structure would be largely similar to the old Camarilla structure.
This structure also allows for a little more internal strife. The Covenents do not get along all pally-pal-pal all the time. They have alliances and nemesis as much as their members do. There are also external threats - the werewolves of the new WoD, Belial's Brood, VII, and, soon, Hunters.
A lot of this will depend on the nature of the overall world conversion though. If, for example, the majority of the old clans remain intact through the transition, it will alter some of the ways the Covenent interactions play out.
Anyway, back to work. That was a productive use of my break. :P
Parts of the social distance between older and newer characters will be alliviated via the introduction of covenents which, in an almost fraternal fashion, bring players together under an umbrella which is neither the city's or their clans. Covenents can give them common interests and goals that cross many of the other mechanical boundries inherent in the game - whether those goals be political, academic, or supernatural (or, yes, even physical).
I am, for the record, a strong proponent of the introduction of covenents rather than the old Sects of the Camarilla and Sabbat, as I think they are also a more realistic take on the social structures that undead monsters would create for themselves.
The primogen meetings are a major point for me. As someone that was not in them, I feel I can pretty accurately reflect the opinions of those of us absent from those meetings when I say "It was fucking boring." The only realistic alternative I see is that any such meetings which will remove the majority of GMs and/or current movers and shakers from the playing field should be help exclusively online. I can easily configure a forum in such a way that such meetings can be kept private (except from me, of course >:D) from the rest of the players if the Primogen, or whatever are in place once the reorgnizations are over, want to "meet" in private.
In a lot of ways I think that the migration from one system to another opens up a lot of neat possibilities, not the least of which is a chance to give everyone a fresh start. Another primary point of potential is the plot possibilities and complications that come into play. The new version of WoD, at least for the bloodsucking type, has more layers of social interaction in it than previously existed. Some part of your blood makes you fundamentally loyal to your clan, but at the same time, your mental loyalty and most of your strongest social bonds exist within your covenent. At the same time, the Prince is vying for your loyalty, largely independant of the covenent structure. The new social structure is also, in some ways, less rigid than the oWod system was. If, for example, the Carthian Movement gains power in the city, there won't be a Prince. There would instead be a fairly elected President of the City, who would, in a way, answer to its residents - esspecially if he wanted to keep the job. Alternately, if the Invictus gain power (which is sort of their thing), the structure would be largely similar to the old Camarilla structure.
This structure also allows for a little more internal strife. The Covenents do not get along all pally-pal-pal all the time. They have alliances and nemesis as much as their members do. There are also external threats - the werewolves of the new WoD, Belial's Brood, VII, and, soon, Hunters.
A lot of this will depend on the nature of the overall world conversion though. If, for example, the majority of the old clans remain intact through the transition, it will alter some of the ways the Covenent interactions play out.
Anyway, back to work. That was a productive use of my break. :P
I'd like to throw my zero cents in here and make an opinion. Though I will probably not be able to play more than one or two game sessions a year for the next couple years, I would like offer my advice.
Though there is stratification between the new players and the old players, it is surmountable. I built Carson on a lark in what I think was the third summer. His character sheet (aside from kissy marks) isn't all that impressive. He's very good at what he does, but he's only done it twice. However, he sits on the primogen counsel and can easily get the ear of the prince or any of the others. This has nothing to do with his stat line, it has to do with roleplaying. Others in the group have also bridged that gap, it was hard and took some conniving on my part, but I think that, as Rydi commented to me once, the kindred of The City seem to just sort of get along. And that's exactly why social stratification is hard to break. If the kindred were conspiring and backstabbing, then neonates would be directly recruited as footsoldiers for the elders and given attention but would be used to harm competing elders for power, attention, or whatever.
With the Reclamation game, I was attempting to foster an environment in which players would at their very concept be fighting eachother, unfortunately with the boards going down what little progress towards this end was lost. But part of my goal was to try to foster this calculating manipulation that VtM was intended to feature. (As an aside, I greatly thank everyone who put time and effort into that game, and I express my deepest regrets that the game didn't 'make'. You are truly scholars and gentlemen. The rest of you suck.)
So, a wipe clean will to some degree help with the xp difference, but a character doesn't need more xp than the prince to unseat him. I would propose, Rydi, that whatever changes are made, the players be pitted against one another.
Gehenna is a great idea for a restart, I like it. It brings the game to completion, sorta, but leaves long standing plot and the essential concept of the city is intact, but all new characters come in and do their dirty things. I'm not at all familiar with NWOD, but to be perfectly honest, it will probably in short order require house rules to manage the retarded contradictions that are white wolf's signature element.
So, essentially I'm saying that you could keep it the same and work on the factors driving players to do things, or start it over, or nothing. I hope I"ve managed not to say anything.
My vote: Wipe clean. Promote Infighting. Army of Zombies rampaging the city streets.
Though there is stratification between the new players and the old players, it is surmountable. I built Carson on a lark in what I think was the third summer. His character sheet (aside from kissy marks) isn't all that impressive. He's very good at what he does, but he's only done it twice. However, he sits on the primogen counsel and can easily get the ear of the prince or any of the others. This has nothing to do with his stat line, it has to do with roleplaying. Others in the group have also bridged that gap, it was hard and took some conniving on my part, but I think that, as Rydi commented to me once, the kindred of The City seem to just sort of get along. And that's exactly why social stratification is hard to break. If the kindred were conspiring and backstabbing, then neonates would be directly recruited as footsoldiers for the elders and given attention but would be used to harm competing elders for power, attention, or whatever.
With the Reclamation game, I was attempting to foster an environment in which players would at their very concept be fighting eachother, unfortunately with the boards going down what little progress towards this end was lost. But part of my goal was to try to foster this calculating manipulation that VtM was intended to feature. (As an aside, I greatly thank everyone who put time and effort into that game, and I express my deepest regrets that the game didn't 'make'. You are truly scholars and gentlemen. The rest of you suck.)
So, a wipe clean will to some degree help with the xp difference, but a character doesn't need more xp than the prince to unseat him. I would propose, Rydi, that whatever changes are made, the players be pitted against one another.
Gehenna is a great idea for a restart, I like it. It brings the game to completion, sorta, but leaves long standing plot and the essential concept of the city is intact, but all new characters come in and do their dirty things. I'm not at all familiar with NWOD, but to be perfectly honest, it will probably in short order require house rules to manage the retarded contradictions that are white wolf's signature element.
So, essentially I'm saying that you could keep it the same and work on the factors driving players to do things, or start it over, or nothing. I hope I"ve managed not to say anything.
My vote: Wipe clean. Promote Infighting. Army of Zombies rampaging the city streets.
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Ebon_Willow
- Knight
- Posts: 41
- Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2008 4:17 pm
So, I suck at this whole role playing thing. I come because I want to hang with my friends, and because I find it interesting. However, anything that I have managed to gain, title or other wise I have had to struggle for several years to get! I am not opposed to wiping things clean, but I am concerned for how us non power gamers are gonna come out in the wash.
Nothing Nothing Nothing Tra La La
this is kind of funny. from both the boards and rl, it seems that the most concern for a reboot is coming from the people it is most meant to help, ie the non-power gamers. the reboot smooths out the power levels, reduces stratification, and overall need for rules knowledge.
i plan on keeping titles and stuff, and overall character concepts, for those that want to keep them. and for those that just want to remake their characters entirely and start fresh that is perfectly alright to.
i plan on keeping titles and stuff, and overall character concepts, for those that want to keep them. and for those that just want to remake their characters entirely and start fresh that is perfectly alright to.
Threading the Gerbil since 1982
So wow, I looked at Requiem the other night for shits and giggles. Weird. Firs, hard to read some of the nifty font, but the rules are interesting. Durden is now from a Gangrel bloodline. Now I can buy Animalism as an in-clan! Woot...
I will get around to fixing him up. He can get himself killed online by picking on lupines. Oh, and he seizes all of Bree's resources. Gotta keep it in the clan, after all.
I will get around to fixing him up. He can get himself killed online by picking on lupines. Oh, and he seizes all of Bree's resources. Gotta keep it in the clan, after all.